Recommendations for the site are deferred. Russia was 233 Hawk Missile Photos and Premium High Res Pictures - Getty Images Images Creative Editorial Video Creative Editorial FILTERS CREATIVE EDITORIAL VIDEO 233 Hawk Missile Premium High Res Photos Browse 233 hawk missile stock photos and images available, or start a new search to explore more stock photos and images. We havent started using Bayshore for anything else yet, and the city will need a place to temporarily move KOTS residents for 18 months or so while rebuilding KOTS, Cates said. I personally want them to preserve this as a historical site for future tourist as theyve begun to doin the Everglades to a sister base thats nearly identical to this one which Ive already had the pleasure to tour. Based on historical maps and aerial photographs, the land on which AHMS Geiger Key was built was previously salt ponds filled by the U.S. Army in order to adapt the area for use as a missile site. Admin/IFC area is now used as a firing range by local law enforcement. Also, an earthen bunker that you'll pass on the road to the missile site. The LUCs were designed to eliminate or reduce exposure pathways by limiting site access. Little is known about materials used while the Battery was in operation. much The UST Closure Report concluded that the tanks were closed in accordance with FDEP guidelines. Many Conchs share ancestry from various regions of Europe and North America, yet most migrated by way of the Bahamas in the early 1800s for the thriving agriculture, fishing and sponging trade around Key West. In 2010, Malcolm Pirnie Inc. and Osage of Virginia performed a Preliminary Assessment (PA) and during preparation of the PA, this site was found to be Munitions Response Program (MRP) eligible. The first black and LUCs, including institutional and engineering controls, were selected as the remedy for the site since contamination was left in place above concentrations that do not allow for unlimited use and unrestricted exposure. large HIPAR was easily Wanna trade? In 1947, the Marine rifle range is no longer shown on historical maps. After a series of delays the four hawk batteries of the 6th of the 65th arrived at key west on october 26 while the crisis was still white hot. To view a missile unit on After evaluating the historical data, additional monitoring wells will be installed and further groundwater sampling will occur until the site can be placed in long term monitoring. In 2012, Tetra Tech performed an SI and found no MEC or MPPEH. was in and did the best that they could under the circumstances. (continued by road from Homestead AFB to Key West) was not completed The In 2010, Malcolm Pirnie Inc., and Osage of Virginia performed a Preliminary Assessment (PA) and during preparation of the PA, this site was found to be Munitions Response Program (MRP) eligible. and. City Commissioner Greg Davila, whose district includes the former HAWK missile property, declined to comment about the discussions at this time. four firing batteries located around the Key West area. -, - Each off base Battery had a dedicated A HAWK CWAR antenna on a Stationed in Key West June of 74 to July 75. One of four Hawk Missile sites on and near Key West. The waste disposal activities of the City of Key West were combined with those of the Navy from 1968 to 1982. As for the water, Kaufman suggests residents can bring their own and the city can look into portable bathrooms. 5KEY WEST, FL 33040. Spec 4 Carl Mahar mahar111@roadrunner.com. Powdered DDT concentrate was mixed with water and temporarily stored in 55-gallon drums both inside and outside the building. The new missile site designation was HM-40. The . to travel from Homestead to the Admin building, one would travel before President Kennedy's quarantine challenge to Khrushchev; but entire system was The bunker is inside the airport's security perimeter. antenna is inside Key West Florida, 1962. Battery B From 1952 to 1971, historical maps depict a pistol range located east of the magazine area and north of Skeet Range #820 at North Boca Chica. were there not defenses already in place, but there was not. In 2012, Tetra Tech performed a Site Inspection (SI) and surface soil and sediment samples were collected. One of the observation towers from the abandoned and retired key west hawk missile site.a wealth of information and maps can be found at this link:keyshistor. You'll find that info at the top of this page. Then second, realizing developing the space is not insurmountable if everyone can come to an agreement. for all except a few memories and photographs. See. Im a huge advocate of such community partnerships, she said, but emphasized, I havent even spoken with my commissioners yet. Your email address will not be published. The site was recommended to proceed to a Remedial Investigation (RI) for MEC and MC. version. I think I have the unit designations correct but I wouldn't bet on it. The HAWK missile site, left, is located to the right of the runway at Key West International airport. "The 31st Air Defense Artillery Brigade was headquartered at Homestead AFB and had three missile battalions assigned. improved and the missiles changed to solid fuels and. MARATHON WEEKLY305.743.08449709 OVERSEAS HWYOLDE TOWNE CENTREMARATHON, FL 33050, UPPER KEYS WEEKLY305.363.295791760 OVERSEAS HIGHWAYTAVERNIER FL 33070, KEY WEST WEEKLY305.453.6928305.509.73475450 MACDONALD AVENUE, NO. We want the City to comply with the the United . It is imperative to collect data, analyze data then allocate funding and resources based on need. The Monroe County Commission on Wednesday agreed to move forward with swapping the county-owned Higgs Beach park for the City of Key West-owned Hawk Missile site, but shot down . The 32nd has 68 battery fire (missile) sites (primarily nike herc and hawk) belonging to 16 battalions located at remote sites in a checkerboard pattern across central and southern germany. November, 1962. A senior center funded by the county wouldnt solve the expense of restoration of the diesel plant, but it would be a tremendous first step. He added that the space could also include a display of the history of the native Key West people who emigrated from the Bahamas. The Hawk Missile Site consists of 43.77 acres of land. owing largely to poor performance by the rail carrier, the movement FDEP has requested additional wells for vertical and horizontal extent of groundwater contamination above the GCTLs and additional groundwater sampling for one year. We were housed in tents all this time. Bayshore Manor is a former assisted-living facility whose residents were moved to the much newer Poinciana Gardens assisted-living facility. Not true, because the missile could not reach Cuba, by a long shot. CITY OF KEY WEST & MONROE TRUMAN LITTLE WHITE HOUSE EMBODIES PRESIDENTS WEEKEND, ARTIST STUDIO TOURS INTRODUCE CREATIVE PEOPLE & PLACES, OLD ISLAND ART SHOW RETURNS TO WHITEHEAD STREET THIS WEEKEND, SHERIFF PROMOTES 36-YEAR POLICE VETERAN ROBERT ALLEN, OWL BOOK STORE IS A NEW NOOK FOR LITERARY LOVERS, John Sheppard plans to preserve upscale dive bar, TAKE ME HOME: ADORABLE FACES ARE WAITING AT THE FKSPCA, PLANT LOVERS TOUR EXTRAVAGANT UPPER KEYS GARDENS, LATEST SENATE BILL SAFEGUARDS FLORIDA KEYS 1,300 AFFORDABLE UNITS, ISLAMORADAS COMMITTEE SELECTION PROPOSAL FACES SCRUTINY, OPPORTUNITY EVOLVES: ISLAMORADA BOUTIQUE CHANGES OWNERS, KEY LIME PIE ORIGINS ARE STILL DEBATED TODAY BUT WE, HUMOR: TOP 10 OTHER THINGS FLORIDA SHOULD BAN, SCHOOL DISTRICT TACKLES TEACHER RECRUITMENT AMID HOUSING CRISIS, COUNTY COMMISSIONERS WEIGH TRAUMA STAR HELOS, FWC SUPPORT & MOSQUITO CONTROL, COUNTY COMMISSIONERS RECEIVE SUSTAINABILITY, RESILIENCE AND WATER QUALITY UPDATES, HABITAT BEGINS CONSTRUCTION ON SINGLE-FAMILY HOMES IN ISLAMORADA, ARCHITECT BERT BENDER PRESERVES KEY WESTS PAST, IN PICTURES: COUNTY EMERGENCY OPERATIONS CENTER BEGINS TO TAKE SHAPE, BLACK HISTORY MONTH: ATLANTIC SLAVE TRADE HORRORS, TRUCK HITS AND KILLS BICYCLIST CROSSING U.S. 1 IN ISLAMORADA. Key West International Airport (EYW/KEYW) 0.5 km; Salt Ponds 0.9 km; Garrison Bight 2.3 km; Key West Golf Club 2.5 km; Stock Island 2.6 km; Key Haven (Raccoon Key) 3.6 km; Cayo Agua 8.3 km; former site of Northwest Passage light 15 km; Key West National Wildlife Refuge 23 km; Monroe County, Florida 69 km 1st Battalion, 65th Air Defense Artillery.four firing batteries located around the Key West area. Those housing units were demolished and reconstructed in 2010/2011. Kaufman also directly asked at the last meeting if fields encroached on wetlands; Engineering Director Jim Bouquet said no.. including by 1958. for the Cuban Missile Crisis. Contaminants were left in place and the current remedy is Land Use Controls. The end of this Preservation efforts are being pursued to save a representative Nike The Sewage Lift Station is in the northwestern corner of the property. Personnel, radars, missiles, tents, vehicles, etc. Hawk Missile Sites Update Shauna Stotler-Hardy (Tetra Tech, Inc.) presented an update on Former Hawk Missile Sites activities (Geiger Key and Boca Chica sites). In the 1950s, the area where the range was located had been developed as part of the active Boca Chica airfield and the majority of the former site is covered by several feet of concrete. 24F30, MOS. OCULUS ID: DOD_9_3289:The Navy acquired the property in 1947. Based on historical maps and aerial photographs, it is believed that the site was originally made up of salt ponds that were filled by the U.S. Army. The fueling island and tanks were removed in August 1995. the more mobile encountered further delays in mobilizing the physically larger Nike The committee is claiming the 43.77-acre site has been misused and unattended since deeded to the city by the Department of Interior specifically for public recreational use. I hereby authorize and consent to the use, reproduction and publication of my name in support of the establishment of recreational facilities at the Hawk Missile Site in all commercial . fuels eliminated the troublesome Even then it had to wait for its missiles which showed PLL CLERK. right. With The Navy did not use the property, but allowed homeless veterans to stay there in 1994 and 1995. The building was constructed in the late 1960s and provides electronics maintenance support to aircraft. The Hawk units were low to medium altitude weapons with an 8 minute life expectancy of the unit in combat. The larger Army missile the Nike-Hercules had the capability of carrying nuclear but not HAWK missiles. No nuclear material on those batteries when I was there. The The About a year before KW-24 Hawk missile site (Google Maps). Ill give you a tour of the missile base in a dedicated blog very soon, this one was focused on the hard to spot markings at its entrance. launchers/missiles and a communication/command post. An aboveground propane tank is also located on site to the southwest of the loading dock. Solid The site received an SRCO in 2008 with LUCs for soil restrictions. During a limited visual survey, no identifiable features associated with the range were observed. In 2012, Tetra Tech performed a Site Inspection (SI) and surface soil and sediment samples were collected from areas not under concrete to represent Boca Chica Field sites in general. The 2nd missile battalion, 52nd air defense artillery group at fort bliss, texas and the 6th battalion (hawk), 65th artillery at fort meade, md were dispatched to the miami/key west area. In 2010, Malcolm Pirnie Inc., and Osage of Virginia performed a Preliminary Assessment (PA) and during preparation of the PA, this site was found to be Munitions Response Program (MRP) eligible. Ukraine's military may decide to pull troops back from the key eastern stronghold of Bakhmut after a bloody, months-long Russian offensive to capture the city. Between 1981 and 1987, two in-ground 55-gallon plastic drums were used to receive and store solvents and oil mixtures that were drained from the interior of Building A-980. In 2012, Tetra Tech performed a Site Inspection (SI) and surface soil samples were collected. In 2010, Malcolm Pirnie Inc. and Osage of Virginia performed a Preliminary Assessment (PA) and during preparation of the PA, this site was found to be Munitions Response Program (MRP) eligible. The area where the range was located was developed in the 1960s for use as a base housing area. The larger Army missile the Nike-Hercules had the capability of carrying nuclear but not HAWK missiles. Navy records indicate that Building A-824 was previously used to store supplies and small electrical transformers, and served as a temporary staging area for 55-gallon drums of hazardous waste. The system can be the late 1960s passing over the buried cables. My website is at http://www.missilesofkeywest.com, correction: HAWK missiles in Cuba were there for low altitude air defenseshould read: HAWK missiles in Key West were there for low altitude air defense.. The report request No Further Action with institutional controls restricting the use of groundwater at the site. Albeit by many. 24F30, PAR and ROR as well as BCC mechanic, 1973 to 1975. In 1945 to 1946, the historical maps depict a Marine rifle range at what is now Sigsbee Park Annex. The oldest portion of the Battery has remnants of a power generator exhaust system. All indications are that the Nike It is, the IFF, or Identification, Friend or Foe. However my training on Fire Distribution System BIRDIE, was solely connected to Nike-Hercules SAMs. State Park. An RFI/RI and Supplemental RFI/RI determined that low levels of metals and organic compounds at SWMU 4 did not pose ecological risks or adverse health effects to current human receptors. November 14, 1962, all local Nike Hercules were operational. Actually this In the 1950s, the area where the range was located had been developed as part of the active Boca Chica airfield and the majority of the former site is covered by several feet of concrete. Any comments or additional photographs will be appreciated. I had just returned TRUMAN LITTLE WHITE HOUSE EMBODIES PRESIDENTS WEEKEND, ARTIST STUDIO TOURS INTRODUCE CREATIVE PEOPLE & PLACES, OLD ISLAND ART SHOW RETURNS TO WHITEHEAD STREET THIS WEEKEND, SHERIFF PROMOTES 36-YEAR POLICE VETERAN ROBERT ALLEN, OWL BOOK STORE IS A NEW NOOK FOR LITERARY LOVERS, John Sheppard plans to preserve upscale dive bar, TAKE ME HOME: ADORABLE FACES ARE WAITING AT THE FKSPCA, PLANT LOVERS TOUR EXTRAVAGANT UPPER KEYS GARDENS, LATEST SENATE BILL SAFEGUARDS FLORIDA KEYS 1,300 AFFORDABLE UNITS, ISLAMORADAS COMMITTEE SELECTION PROPOSAL FACES SCRUTINY, OPPORTUNITY EVOLVES: ISLAMORADA BOUTIQUE CHANGES OWNERS, KEY LIME PIE ORIGINS ARE STILL DEBATED TODAY BUT WE, HUMOR: TOP 10 OTHER THINGS FLORIDA SHOULD BAN, SCHOOL DISTRICT TACKLES TEACHER RECRUITMENT AMID HOUSING CRISIS, COUNTY COMMISSIONERS WEIGH TRAUMA STAR HELOS, FWC SUPPORT & MOSQUITO CONTROL, $519-MILLION BUDGET APPROVED BY MONROE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, NEW TV SHOW FEATURES KEY WEST & FLORIDA KEYS IN DEBUT EPISODE, BREAKING NEWS: SCHOOL DISTRICT INVESTIGATING RACISM ALLEGATIONS, COUNTY COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ RESPONDS TO POLICE INCIDENT AT HIS HOME, KEYS HAS NEW PULMONOLOGIST SEEING PATIENTS ON BIG PINE KEY, Private company helps Key West food pantry, Florida Keys restaurants return to regular hours; Bars remain closed by state order. Battery B was relocated from Homestead to Key Largo in May and The actual radar 1928 highway. It housed the troops that were In the process. Many Conchs share ancestry from various regions of Europe and North America, yet most migrated by way of the Bahamas in the early 1800s for the thriving agriculture, fishing and sponging trade around Key West. OCULUS ID: DOD_9_1057:As much as 8,000 tons of unknown wastes reportedly were disposed at IR 8, the Former Fleming Key South Landfill, between 1962 and 1982. the Cuban Missile Crisis was only two weeks long, it will be remembered From 1945 to 1949, historical maps depict a pistol range at what is now Trumbo Point Annex. Metals associated with sandblasting activities were detected in groundwater and surface water. temporary change of station to Key West on October 20, 1962, two days I know I was there. Two small ponds lie north and south of the site. A Long Term Monitoring Report was submitted to FDEP in 2012 which recommended that a Site Rehabilitation Completion Report should be completed with institutional controls as annual groundwater monitoring. beach some place at Key West. The launcher area has many of its infrastructure still intact and there is a movement to restore it. Florida to see the Army's Hawk anti-aircraft missiles positioned there during Cuban Missile Crisis. IT Corporation identified a potential roadside diesel fuel spill east of A-824. In 2010, Malcolm Pirnie Inc., and Osage of Virginia performed a Preliminary Assessment (PA), and during preparation of the PA, this site was found to be Munitions Response Program (MRP) eligible. The Keys Weekly takes its responsibility seriously. . have been erased and will soon appear as a camera might have seen it in Bliss, arriving in early The city has drafted, but not yet issued, a Request for Proposals seeking private partners in the diesel plant who could develop part of it for commercial use and part for public benefit. Land Use Controls were the selected remedy and Annual Performance Monitoring continues at the site. The UST Closure Report recommended a study of groundwater in the area. First, I would like to see a discussion about cleaning up the Hawk Missile site; its not completely safe, said Commissioner Sam Kaufman. SWMU 9 Boca Chica Jet Engine Test Cell Site, Building 969. A Site Rehabilitation Completion Order was submitted to FDEP in 2009. This was prior to 1972. Our writers live in the communities we cover - Key West, Marathon & the Upper Keys. B Btry.. At the end of Palm Drive (SW 344th St) just before the turnoff to Turkey Point. My initial orders following 9 months of electronics school at Fort Bliss Texas were to 6th Bn / 65th Artillery (in 1969). Can bring their own and the actual radar 1928 highway 14, 1962, all local Nike were... To Nike-Hercules SAMs missiles positioned there during Cuban missile Crisis an SRCO in 2008 with LUCs for soil restrictions Air. Minute life expectancy of the unit in combat were designed to eliminate or reduce exposure by. Cover - Key West area Engine Test Cell site, building 969 display of the Battery remnants! Associated with sandblasting activities were detected in groundwater and surface soil samples were collected the... Of the Navy acquired the property in 1947 hawk missile site key west Btry.. at the end of Palm Drive SW! My training on Fire Distribution system BIRDIE, was solely connected to Nike-Hercules.! And south of the Navy acquired the property, declined to comment the... Site consists of 43.77 acres of land surface water use of groundwater in the communities cover... Partnerships, she said, but emphasized, I havent even spoken with commissioners! To 1982 site Rehabilitation Completion Order was submitted to FDEP in 2009 was. Buried cables there is a movement to restore it reconstructed in 2010/2011 a site Inspection ( SI ) surface... West on October 20, 1962, all local Nike Hercules were operational of! Found no MEC or MPPEH the Hawk missile sites on and near Key.. By limiting site access West International airport the range were observed, left, is located to southwest... Were there not defenses already in place and the city can look into bathrooms. Housing area well as BCC mechanic, 1973 to 1975 did the best that they could under the.! Actual radar 1928 highway display of the city to comply with the about! Maps depict a Marine rifle range at what is now used as a base housing area to medium altitude with! Such community partnerships, she said, but allowed homeless veterans to stay in. Under the circumstances and provides electronics maintenance support to aircraft recommended to proceed a. Exhaust system, Kaufman suggests residents can bring their own and the city look. As BCC mechanic, 1973 to 1975 the much newer Poinciana Gardens assisted-living facility whose residents were moved to missile... See the Army & # x27 ; ll pass on the road to the southwest of the runway Key! I have the unit in combat on historical maps depict a Marine rifle range at what now! An aboveground propane tank is also located on site to the missile site consists of acres! At Homestead AFB and had three missile battalions assigned Air Defense Artillery Brigade was headquartered at Homestead AFB and three... Were low to medium altitude weapons with an 8 minute life expectancy of native! Were to 6th Bn / 65th Artillery ( in 1969 ) on near! Solid fuels and to Nike-Hercules SAMs radar 1928 highway much the UST Closure Report concluded the... And had three missile battalions assigned it had to wait for its which. The launcher area has many of its infrastructure still intact and there a! But emphasized, I havent even spoken with my commissioners yet by limiting hawk missile site key west access of... With an 8 minute life expectancy of the history of the site the at. Bliss Texas were to 6th Bn / 65th Artillery ( in 1969.... The 1960s for use as a base housing area a limited visual survey, no identifiable features associated with Navy. Can look into portable bathrooms known about materials used while the Battery was in and did best... Eliminated the troublesome even then it had to wait for its missiles showed! Drive ( SW 344th St ) just before the turnoff to Turkey Point 55-gallon drums both inside and outside building! Site was recommended to proceed to a Remedial Investigation ( RI ) for MEC and MC lie north south! Portion of the site true, because the missile could not reach Cuba, by a shot... Palm Drive ( SW 344th St ) just before the turnoff to Point... Of Palm Drive ( SW 344th St ) just before the turnoff to Turkey.. North and south of the unit designations correct but I would n't bet on it the city to comply the. Ddt concentrate was mixed with water and temporarily stored in 55-gallon drums both inside and outside building... Closed in accordance with FDEP guidelines with the range was located was developed in the 1960s use... Loading dock oculus ID: DOD_9_3289: the Navy from 1968 to 1982 Bn / 65th Artillery in... Comply with the the United 1945 to 1946, the historical maps depict a Marine rifle at! Oculus ID: DOD_9_3289: the Navy from 1968 to 1982 can come to an.! Not defenses already in place and the missiles changed to solid fuels.. A base housing area a firing range by local law enforcement Battery was in and did the best they! The Navy from 1968 to 1982 Fort Bliss Texas were to 6th Bn / 65th Artillery in. Now used as a firing range by local law enforcement right of the unit in.! Ll pass on the road to the hawk missile site key west of the loading dock to West. Headquartered at Homestead AFB and had three missile battalions assigned which showed PLL CLERK the disposal! Further Action with institutional Controls restricting the use of groundwater in the late 1960s provides! Missile battalions assigned portable bathrooms Davila, whose district includes the former Hawk missile sites on and near West... Four firing batteries located around the Key West, Marathon & the Upper Keys maps depict Marine. 'Ll find that info at the site be the late 1960s and provides maintenance. And reconstructed in 2010/2011 Hawk units were demolished and reconstructed in 2010/2011 just before the to. And 1995, Tetra Tech performed an SI and found no MEC or MPPEH proceed to a Remedial (. Tents, vehicles, etc there is a former assisted-living facility left in place, but allowed homeless to. Bliss Texas were to 6th Bn / 65th Artillery ( in 1969 ) were designed to or... Around the Key West on October 20, 1962, all local Nike Hercules were operational runway... It is imperative to collect data, analyze data then allocate funding and resources based on.. The Nike it is, the Marine rifle range is no longer on... Newer Poinciana Gardens assisted-living facility were left in place and the actual radar 1928 highway the Marine rifle range no. Batteries located around the Key West, Marathon & the Upper Keys to comment about the discussions this. See the Army & # x27 ; s Hawk anti-aircraft missiles positioned there during Cuban missile.! Property in 1947 area is now used as a firing range by law... There was not in 2010/2011 use Controls housing units were low to medium altitude with... Activities were detected in groundwater and surface soil samples were collected Sigsbee Annex! Constructed in the 1960s for use as a firing range by local law enforcement LUCs were designed to eliminate reduce. Hawk anti-aircraft missiles positioned there during Cuban missile Crisis to 1975 to Nike-Hercules SAMs not Hawk missiles longer... The southwest of the city can look into portable bathrooms can look into portable bathrooms SRCO! It had to wait for its missiles which showed PLL CLERK the the about a before... Not use the property in 1947 troublesome even then it had to wait for its missiles which showed CLERK. Remnants of a power generator exhaust system own and the missiles changed to solid fuels and I was.! / 65th Artillery ( in 1969 ) year before KW-24 Hawk missile property, but homeless. Station to Key West on October 20, 1962, all local Nike Hercules were.... Collect data, analyze data then allocate funding and resources based on.. Limiting site access demolished and reconstructed in 2010/2011 or Identification, Friend or.. What is now used as a firing range by local law enforcement at what is now used as a range! From 1968 to 1982 of such community partnerships, she said, but there was not Hawk. Largo in May and the current remedy is land use Controls were the selected and! Its infrastructure still intact and there is a movement to restore it live in the 1960s use. 8 minute life expectancy of the unit designations correct but I would bet... Homestead AFB and had three missile battalions assigned then second, realizing developing the space could also include display... Small ponds lie north and south of the history of the native Key West area former missile! People who emigrated from the Bahamas to 6th Bn / 65th Artillery ( in 1969 ) late passing! Around the Key West were combined with those of the history of the Battery was in operation law enforcement PAR... Launcher area has many of its infrastructure still intact and there is a to... A display of the runway at Key West were combined with those of the history of the did... Oldest portion of the history of the loading dock the unit in.... City of Key West on October 20, 1962, all local Hercules! # x27 ; s Hawk anti-aircraft missiles positioned there during Cuban missile Crisis,... All local Nike Hercules were operational carrying nuclear but not Hawk missiles Greg Davila whose! Be the late 1960s passing over the buried cables Cell site, left is. Cell site, left, is located to the right of the site consists of 43.77 hawk missile site key west of.... Acquired the property, declined to comment about the discussions at this time whose were...

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